Buffy the Vampire Slayer & Angel - SPOILERS

Post by **Roland** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:08 pm

Ох, Оз как не ми липсваше

смисъл, як пич и т.н., обаче развитието на Уилоу почва буквално СЛЕД него.

Matrim · Post by **Matrim** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:13 pm

И на мен не ми липсваше Оз. В смисъл пич е, но бива ли толкова да няма развитие тоя човек? Герои появяващи се в един-два епизоди имат повече развитие от него баси.

Spoiler: show: Освен това Тара ме радва много повече от него.

Но силно не съм съгласен с това, че Уилоу преди четвърти сезон не се променя хич.

Amelia · Post by **Amelia** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:23 pm

На мен Оз и Тара ми бяха малко през центъра и двамата, ама кефят, де.

Райли сам по себе си не е кой знае кво, но с Бъфи двамцата развиват разни доста яки идеи. Симпатичен ми беше. Поредният пич, който Бъфи да тормози с малоумните си женски изпълнения.

Бобсън · Post by **Бобсън** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 10:12 pm

Бобсън wrote:Имам питане
в епизод 01e17 Eternity
Защо тъй Ангел влиза на бегом през стъклената врата на дома на Ребека
без никой да го е поканвал?]

Post by **Roland** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 10:25 pm

Това, че никой не ти отговори, не беше ли достатъчен намек, че няма кой да ти отговори? Не помня епизода и не ми се рови да проверявам.

Matrim · Post by **Matrim** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 10:39 pm

IMDB is your friend: While at Angel's office Rebecca invites him to come over for a visit "some time."

passer-by · Post by **passer-by** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:25 am

Изгледах епизод 3 х 15.

Фейт става все по-интересен персонаж.

passer-by · Post by **passer-by** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:05 pm

3 x 16. Doppelgangland, I presume?

Ама как си личи кои епизоди са писани и режисирани от Джос Уидън! Този е страхотен.

Look at me. I'm all fluffy.

А докато Корделия надуваше главата на Вамп Уилоу в клетката, с какъв копнеж я гледаше вампирката.

What? Do I have something on my neck?
Not yet.

Matrim · Post by **Matrim** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:17 pm

Willow: [Giles, Willow, Xander and Buffy in the library discussing vamp Willow] This is creepy. I don't like the thought that there's a vampire out there that looks like me.
Xander: Not looks like... is.
Buffy: It was exactly you, Will, every detail. Except for your not being a dominatrix... as far as we know.
Willow: Oh, right. Me and Oz play Mistress of Pain every night.
Xander: Did anyone else just go to a scary visual place?
Buffy: Oh, yeah.
[Giles raises his hand]
Angel: [rushing in] Buffy, I... Something's happened that... Willow's dead.
[no-one looks surprised]
Angel: [Angel sees Willow] Hey, Willow.
[takes another look at her]
Angel: Wait a second.
Xander: We're right there with you, buddy.
-----------------------------------

Willow: And I think I am kind of gay.
----------------------------------------

Anya: I am 1120 years old! Just give me a freaking beer!

----------------------
Anya: (dramatically) For a thousand years I wielded the powers of The
Wish. I brought ruin to the heads of unfaithful men. I brought forth
destruction and chaos for the pleasure of the lower beings. I was feared
and worshipped across the mortal globe. (disgustedly) And now I'm stuck
at Sunnydale High. (despondently) Mortal. Child. And I'm flunking math.

-------------------------------------
Willow: (improvises quickly) This girl has a history of mental problems
dating back to early childhood. (desperately) I'm a blood-sucking fiend!
(pats herself) Look at my outfit!
---------------------------------

Doppelgangland e сигурно най-цитируемият епизод в целия сериал.

Само финалът му е леко тъпичък, но какво да се прави.

passer-by · Post by **passer-by** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 7:04 am

Относно гей-преображенията.

Джос Уидън бил казал, че още отрано е смятал да направи с обратна резба или Уилоу, или ЗАНДЪР.

Ама се колебаел кой от двамата да бъде. В един момент Сет Грийн (Оз) напуснал сериала и това определило решението.
Иначе казано, ако Оз беше останал, може би не Уилоу и Тара, а той и Зандър щяха да са гей-двойката.

А защо Сет Грийн е напуснал -

There's a featurette on the Season 4 DVD in which Seth Green explains why he left the show. As I plow through the show again I just rewatched it.

Basically after becoming a regular in Season 3, he and Joss had talks about arcs for the character. Writers had a hard time finding places for Oz in some scripts, and eventually the arcs for Faith and the business with the Mayor sidetracked all plans for Oz. At the beginning of Season 4 Green talked again with Whedon and asked if he could go back to being a recurring cast member like in Season 2, but by this time it was felt Oz was too imbeded in the mythology of the show so the best thing for the show would be for him to leave. Thus the arc for Oz in Season 4 was condensed all into one episode (Wild at Heart).

Жалко. Мен доста ме кефи със суховатия си хумор. А като си обясняваха с Уилоу колко са влюбени и как точно го изразяват е уникално.

Matrim · Post by **Matrim** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:07 pm

Аз доколкото съм чувал евентуалният гей партньор на Зандър е щял да бъде Спайк, не Оз. Макар че мен лично силно ме съмнява, че наистина е имало серизони такива планове. Другият слух е, че връзката Тара/Уилоу не е била запланувана от рано, а на Джос и останалите толкова им харесал събтекста между тях, че са го превърнали в текст.

Post by **Roland** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:18 pm

Абе изобщо слухове. You guys outgeek ME!

Мен пък по ме кефи как Уидън е показал Пръста на всички фенове, дето се разпищяли как можело Уилоу да е лезбийка

Matrim · Post by **Matrim** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:35 pm

Не само това, но после (могъщи спойлъри!)

Spoiler: show: показва още по-голям среден пръст и на дай-хард лесбо феновете, които и до ден днешен го мразят заради Dead Lesbian Syndrome

Ако на някой му се чете забавен рант по темата:

It's, IMO, a much bigger picture than that. The "toaster" is metaphorical. With the introduction of Tara and the coming out of Willow, Joss and Co. were heaped with praise by the GLBT community and progressive-minded folks for daring to have a seemingly straight character enter a same-sex relationship and decide she was really gay all along and for handling it with a degree of sensitivity and a lack of sweeps week shock/titilation factor that was greater than 95 percent of most other attempts on American TV up till that point. (Ah, the good old days, when sweeps weeks commercials promised hot girl-on-girl liplock action that went nowhere.) Joss gets interviewed all over the place, proclaims that it was always his intent to have a character come out as gay and that Seth Green leaving unexpectedly helped him decide which one, and soaks up all kinds of praise for being a champion of the GLBT community as well as a feminist, thus further building up his "progressive" street cred. Joss HAD to be aware that much of that praise being thrown on him was precisely because his was virtually the only show that included a sensitive portrayal of a happy non-hetero couple. (Thus, the "toaster" = all the praise he was getting.) He defends this choice against criticism from fans unhappy not just with the end of W/O but with Willow being in a same-sex relationship at all, who make nasty comments directed at both Tara and Amber Benson herself.

Fifth season: W/T continues. There's some restless stirrings about the limited physical depiction of the 'ship, with Joss commenting that the network won't let them show Willow and Tara so much as kiss, much less show them in bed together. We finally see a W/T kiss in The Body, in a scene that was not salacious and made perfect sense no matter what the genders of the characters involved. In interviews, Joss tells anybody who will listen that the network was dead set against the kiss and how he had to not just threaten to quit if it couldn't be included but actually had started cleaning out his office before the network relented. Also, Joss has Willow definitively declare herself as "gay now" when he previously had described her as in love with the person, not the gender.

Sixth season: The show moves to UPN, who don't have any pesky standards department forbidding W/T physicality. W/T break up because Willow's a crackhead. Tara's self-confidence and backbone grow, and she even becomes somebody DepressoBuffy can turn to about her EvilWrongICan'tStop sex with Spike. In a season where shippers are disgruntled because the ships aren't proceeding as expected, W/T finally reunite in a passionate kiss. But rumors that a Scooby will die dog the season, with speculation falling on Tara because she's the only one who's not a regular. Stephen DeKnight unequivocably denies it. Seeing Red, which he wrote the script for, then airs. Fandom says, "OH NO YOU DIDN'T!" A troll at the Kitten Board strings the outraged Kittens along with false hope that the season will end with a magical "reset" that will resurrect Tara. DeKnight admits that he was lying. Joss protests that the Story Dictated that Tara Die so we could have Dark Willow, then expresses consternation that anybody would accuse him of perpetuating the Dead Lesbian cliche (if it kills one lesbian like a duck, drives another lesbian insane with grief like a duck, and saves the insane lesbian through a straight male like a duck, it must actually be a cocker spaniel). He protests accusations of betraying a segment of the audience that he actively cultivated and accepted praise from, then further claims ignorance that there were virtually no other happy GLBT relationships on American primetime. Slackjawed fans begin openly questioning whether he's being oblivioius, obtuse, or just full of shit.

Pre-season seven and beyond: Joss and Marti begin a PR campaign to re-establish ME's "lesbo street cred" by declaring between seasons that while they might have thought of pursuing W/X for half a second in S7, Willow will instead definitively remain a lesbian because to do otherwise "felt wrong" after Tara's death. After CwDP airs with Willow being haunted by the First posing as the ghost of a girl Willow never met because her DarkWillow phase prevents her from seeing Tara's ghost, ME says the original script had her being haunted by FirstTara directly but Amber wouldn't play ball; Amber says she didn't want the W/T fans' hurt to be compounded by their last image of Tara being evil. ME then proceeds with Kennedy, the "anti-Tara," showing up and apparently hitting on Willow in the time-honored tradition of "We're the only Lesbians in the Room, Let's Get Together," despite the noticeable lack of any chemistry. At least a year after the show ends, Joss claims to a W/T-friendly crowd that he had planned for Buffy to get one wish to change something, and that she would ultimately wish for Tara to have never died, and presto, there she is, and claims that Amber wouldn't play ball. When told about it, Amber says this is the first she's ever heard of it. More than a few fans decide that Joss pulled this allegedly thwarted plot twist directly out of his ass simply to placate the crowd.

It's wordy, and I admit that it's biased, but it paints a clearer picture of why some folks back in the day started muttering to themselve, "Shut Up, Joss."

Какъв е изводът? Не е лесна работа това политическата коректност.

passer-by · Post by **passer-by** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 1:10 pm

Ами на мен пък доста ми допадна въпросният рант. Начело със следните цитати:

Joss has Willow definitively declare herself as "gay now" when he previously had described her as in love with the person, not the gender.

Slackjawed fans begin openly questioning whether he's being oblivioius, obtuse, or just full of shit.

At least a year after the show ends, Joss claims to a W/T-friendly crowd that he had planned for Buffy to get one wish to change something, and that she would ultimately wish for Tara to have never died, and presto, there she is, and claims that Amber wouldn't play ball. When told about it, Amber says this is the first she's ever heard of it. More than a few fans decide that Joss pulled this allegedly thwarted plot twist directly out of his ass simply to placate the crowd.

Всичко останало в спойлъра също звучи логично, но трябва да изгледам сериала докрай и ще преценя споделям ли тази гледна точка. Все пак не е като да няма поводи за рант, мисля си.

Има и друг момент. Наскоро гледах репортаж от разговор между Уидън, Марти Ноксън и актьори от сериала с фенове на фестивала Пейли през 2008 г. Присъстваха основните актьори БЕЗ Алисън Ханиган и Дейвид Бореаназ. Сега, Дейвид има професионални ангажименти, най-малкото покрай Боунс, освен това чувам, че бил доста подразнен от анулирането на сериала "Ейнджъл". Чудя се обаче защо Алисън Ханиган избягва да коментира сериала след приключването му и не се появява на срещи с публиката. Дали й е било приятно да играе ролята, която са искали от нея в последните сезони? Защото това, което чета от фенове (и за, и против) ме навежда на неприятната мисъл, че Уидън я е направил лесбийка малко самоцелно. Ама ще видя, де, любопитно ми е как го поднася.

Впрочем в комикса Бъфи също е обърнала резбата.

Толкова ли е наложително това за героините на Уидън, не мога да разбера?

Моля да бъда разбран правилно - не съм гей-хейтър, но се дразня, когато се набляга на гей-отношения, за да се покаже колко политически некоректен може да е даден сериал (или комикс). Но ще изгледам сериала и ще си кажа дали ми се е сторило неестествено/пресилено/излишно от художествена гледна точка.

Matrim · Post by **Matrim** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 1:31 pm

Абе то че има поводи, има, аз не го постнах това, за да изразя тоталното си несъгласие с такава гледна точка. Въпросът е, че и всички хетеро връзки в тоя сериал завършват зле, не е като да са само лесбийките злощастното изключение. Това, че Джос явно е искал да седне на два стола и е паднал накрая е друг въпрос.

Buffy the Vampire Slayer & Angel - SPOILERS

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